Building Human-Centered AI Strategies in Commercial Real Estate

Bill Douglas: Foreign.

Drew Hall: Welcome back to the Peak Property Performance Podcast. I am your co host, Drew Hall. Before we get to the people involved in today's podcast, let me just say before we introduce our guest, just remind our listeners to, like, subscribe, share, basically press everything you possibly can. It's how we're spreading the word on the PPP move movement and hopefully changing an industry. That's what we're really trying to do. And if you'd like to provide value here as a guest, either for yourself or if you know someone you think that would be a good guest here. We welcome commercial real estate thought leaders from all stages of ownership and operation. Please just reach out to us via Peak PropertyPerformance.com is probably the best way to do it.

Drew Hall: You can find all of our contact information there. It's really easy to get in touch with us there. So in the spirit of speaking with and hearing from someone besides myself, let me first introduce our other co host, Bill Douglas. Welcome, Bill.

Bill Douglas: Thanks, Drew. I love these things. This is always fun. And I'm excited to introduce everybody to Suman Gidwani because Suman. Excuse me, because we met Suman, what, a year and a half ago now in New York City at a NYSERDA conference and just jived right away. And Ryan introduced us. Ryan was for everybody listening. Ryan's the helped us put the book together, so he's on the COVID as well.

Bill Douglas: He doesn't do the podcast with us, but he's on the COVID as well. So Suman is in Seattle today, traveling Nomad. Say hello and then I'll read your introduction.

Suman Gidwani: All right. Hi, team. It's such a pleasure to be here with you guys today. Like Bill said, the moment I met him, I knew we thought alike and. And had a lot of similar feelings about the real estate industry. And so just excited to be here and chat and continue to learn from you all and, you know, happy to have any listeners reach out as well and be a part of the conversation.

Bill Douglas: Well, today on the show we're joined by Suman, and she's a technology and innovation leader whose career has spanned digital transformation, sustainability initiatives. I know you're passionate about those. And operational innovation across multiple industries, including but not limited to commercial real estate. Suman has worked with organizations ranging from IBM, where she is currently, to NYSERDA's behavioral design initiatives in partnership with Irrational Labs that was exclusively focused on commercial real estate ownership behavior and helping leaders better understand how people adopt new technologies, how organizations manage change, and why some innovation efforts succeed while others struggle. I Think looking forward to that being the topic of today's show. Drew, you didn't say the topic. I will. Commercial real estate doesn't have a technology problem.

Bill Douglas: It has an adoption problem. So Suman's expertise gives her a unique perspective on commercial real estate, an industry with tremendous opportunity, but one that has often been, as we mentioned on this show, slower than others to adopt technology, leverage data, and modernize operations. So today we're going to explore why innovation and commercial real estate is increasingly happening at the operational level. What owners can learn from technology adoption in other industries, like why data ownership matters more than ever, and how building operators can move from simply collecting information to creating actionable intelligence. I usually don't do that long of an introduction, but you had a lot in there, Suman, so welcome to the show.

Suman Gidwani: Thank you so much.

Drew Hall: All right, Suman, let's begin by talking about actual real tangible industry leading innovation. And so you've said that much of that meaningful innovation in commercial real estate is happening at the operational level. Why do you think that is, specifically at the operational level?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, you know, that is such a good question. You know, I would definitely argue that innovation in the real estate space, in the commercial real estate space, happens much less by developers and much more by asset managers, energy providers, technology partners, and operating partners. And, you know, you think about developers, their horizons are long, their time horizons are long. And when you think about operators, their time horizons are on the day to day, right? They are thinking about what's happening with a building every single day, which is it's a living, breathing organism. And they get to be the folks who see that on a daily basis, whether it be, you know, how the technology in the, in the building is functioning, whether it be, you know, who's moving in and out of the space. And so they have a unique view into how we can make change in a building quickly. And, and one of the things I'd love to chat about in a bit is around the values from the technology world that we can kind of bring to the real estate world. And one of those is around iteration, quick iteration, being able to take data, learn from it quickly, iterate on it.

Suman Gidwani: And operators have the benefit of being able to do that because they're learning from a building every single day.

Drew Hall: Yeah, that is fantastic. So do you think that ownership is doing their part? Are they appropriately contributing to that technology driven, you know, velocity, or is ownership just kind of along for the ride, doing their part? Are they in the right lane, doing the right things, or should they also be participating More in those meaningful innovations themselves.

Suman Gidwani: Yeah. Such a great question. I think it depends. Ultimately, I think anyone can be involved in. In innovation. Right. It comes ultimately down to your mindset and your willingness to. To innovate.

Suman Gidwani: And like we just talked about, I think that happens. Innovation happens more at the technology and the operational level. And so if owners can start to invest in the digital infrastructure of their building, they can become a really important part of this equation. And I also want to pause there. You know, when we say invest, you know, I can imagine listeners thinking, yeah, I mean, that's going to cost me a lot of money. But I really want to encourage folks to. To think about your digital infrastructure being an asset rather than a cost center. Because once you invest in it, the upside is.

Suman Gidwani: Is so much higher. What you learn from it, what you gain from it, is going to far outpace what you. What you invested in it.

Drew Hall: Yeah, man. Yeah. As soon as you said that, encouraging listeners that this digital infrastructure is truly an asset, I was like, I feel like we should just make sure listeners know we're not paying you to say that. That's like, perfect.

Bill Douglas: I was hoping you'd say that. Drew, there was no money exchanged today. I did not tell her to say that.

Drew Hall: It's. It's absolutely true, too. And when, when owners embrace that and it just removes that friction and the numbers speak for themselves over and over and over. That's right. And go into continuously updating performance and things like that. So, yeah, it is real, it is tangible, it is quantitative. Yeah. I think the last.

Drew Hall: The last question I would ask here in this category anyway is, is it the case that that innovation ever struggles to get that executive support?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we. We see that every day. We see that everywhere. Right. And my advice there is to start small. This is kind of another principle that I kind of want to bring over from the technology world to the commercial real estate world. Experimentation.

Suman Gidwani: How do we start small? Take a small slice of something, make a small investment up front, and then demonstrate to folks that this is actually driving value that is far beyond what we can drive without it. And so by starting small, by experimenting with one small piece of technology or one small part of the building, let's prove this model out. And all of a sudden, that's how you start to gain the support that you need in order to invest again and again in those tranches. Right. And ultimately see the benefit across buildings.

Drew Hall: Yeah, that's great. Absolutely.

Bill Douglas: Well, in the book, we talk about the big three plays like, we love sports, analogies, in reality, we don't advocate starting with one of the bigs. You know, do something that your team can see success in. You can break the process on a small one and then just if you do move to the bigs, do one at a time. We get asked a lot, how fast can we go? And the answer is, we don't know. It depends on your organization and the culture. Like, we can go as fast as you want. You know, theoretically you can too. But there will be resistance points to change, to adoption, to implementation, to integrations, to binding the data, et cetera, et cetera.

Bill Douglas: So I'm glad you said the agile and use the data first. I know this topic's near and dear to your heart. Let's talk about sustainability. You told me several times that you, you want to get this infused more in the conversation, but a lot of times I see sustainability come up in commercial real estate and most people just think about building materials, certifications, energy projects, or some things they have to do. Right. Why is technology still missing from much of that conversation?

Suman Gidwani: That is, that is the question at hand. Right? Yeah. So I think to, to just validate what you said, Bill. You know, per the US Green Building Council, buildings represent 40% of our US carbon emissions.

Bill Douglas: Say that again. Say that again.

Suman Gidwani: Buildings represent 40% of total U.S. carbon emissions. And so there's a huge opportunity there for buildings to be a lever for change and sustainability. Right. As you start to think about it, we can do that through what you said, Bill. You know, we, we could do that through how buildings are made, through having, you know, lower embodied carbon prefab, all of that kind of stuff. But I think the consensus is that, you know, the greenest buildings are the ones that already exist. You know, the, the majority of buildings, especially in dense urban areas like New York city, for example, 80, 90% of them are already built.

Suman Gidwani: And so there's only so much work we can do there. And that's leads us to your question, which is like, what about technology? Like, where does technology play here? How can we leverage digital infrastructure? How can we leverage retrofits to turn that around? And ultimately you can't manage what you don't measure. And so you need that digital infrastructure in order to collect the data that you need and then turn it around and provide you with insights and actions on how you can change your building to ultimately, you know, hopefully reduce carbon emissions of your building.

Bill Douglas: Well, you did all that work with NYSERDA and irrational Labs relative to, I think it was just multifamily owners, right? That was this particular study. So do you have some performance improvement examples relative to sustainability? Some numbers, like, we're not selling anything here. Just use, use big picture things. Right. And just say if this, then that. Do you have some examples you could share?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, I mean, I'll reference your book as a starting point. You know, you talk about performance in your book and you talk about, you know, addressing high touch systems that require a lot of personnel time or frequent troubleshooting, like H Vac, for example, needing constant attention from a building engineer. So that is a prime example of a place where you can use technology to reduce the cost of maintenance, improve tenant experience, and also drive sustainability. So sustainability doesn't live in its own silo. Right. We want to think about where can we find overlaps in improving sustainability but also reducing your costs as a building owner. And so I would say, like, utilities are some of the biggest cost centers. And also energy sucks.

Suman Gidwani: And that's a key place where we can use technology to turn things around.

Bill Douglas: I have this conversation often because this audience, right, they, not the audience on the show, but this industry, a lot of times they're just, they, they are set in their ways. It's change, man. I mean, resistance to change is pretty high. I think that sustainability is woo woo. It's like, no, I want you to think of sustainability as a selfish gainer.

Suman Gidwani: Yes.

Bill Douglas: If you shift your property into being more sustainable, you spend less money that benefits you, that benefits your tenants, and oh, by the way, it benefits everything else that sustainability impacts. So I want you to be selfish when you implement sustainable actions. Drew knows this story. We audited a building about a year and a half ago and found a lighting control system that was never turned on. Seven years old.

Suman Gidwani: Wow.

Bill Douglas: Turned it on. And they saved 77, 0, $70,000 that year in energy expenses. Granted, some of those were shared expenses because it was an office building, but this building was 30% common area, so that reduced the owner's expense over $20,000. That went right to the bottom line. You can call that woo woo. You can call it sustainable. What I call it real money. That was the point I was trying to make there.

Bill Douglas: And you, you just laid it on that. So what are some owner misconceptions about that other than the one I just laid out there?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest one is the appetite for innovation, which is something we, you know, we already touched on is folks think a lot about the cost. They don't think about innovation until something breaks. A tenant complains there is a problem on their hands. But, you know, by using technology we can actually, rather than being reactive, we can be proactive so we can avoid tenant complaints, we can avoid potential loss of income. And not just that, we can actually drive revenue by implementing technology proactively. So I think a misconception is, is that, you know, this is going to cost me money and I have no idea what's, what the upside is going to be for me. But when you work with technology partners or providers who have done this work before, or you look at peers who have experience, look to your peers, form a peer network and that way you can each kind of trial innovation, small innovations across different portfolios and share that knowledge. So yeah, I think the misconception is that it's a cost center when really, you know, it can, it can drive revenue for you.

Bill Douglas: Well, I remember the takeaway from NYSERDA event that I was at with you was that was the number one, is this, is this cost too much? I'd rather pay the fine because New York is going to levy the fines pretty soon. I'd rather just pay the fine than do it. And it's not, it's actually a lot more expensive to have the fine. The second one was information overload. Commercial real estate owners are getting everything in the world dumped on them. And just like it's not just them, it's like anything. If you, if you say, I want to go buy a pickup truck, you can get lost looking for pickup trucks, not just which manufacturers, but what types and what, four and two wheel. Four wheel, like how long is the bed? Do I have two door or four door? Like, et cetera, et cetera.

Bill Douglas: There's too much information. So we encourage listeners to try and simplify that. Like start small, like you said earlier on, simplify it. Be aware that there is information overload. Any implementation we do, we try really hard to slim it down to no more than three choices for a client. And they're clearly guardrailed like, here's the whole world that we pick this, like this much to do. So how can you simplify it? So number one, it's not as expensive as you think. It puts money in your pocket.

Bill Douglas: And two is beware of information overload. That was what I took away. Do you have anything else you would add from that conference?

Suman Gidwani: I think I would just underline the fact that technology both generates income and helps you avoid fines. So you know, it'll reduce your expenses by improving building performance and operating economics, help you avoid those fines and ultimately drive revenue generation. And so I think that is the key takeaway. There is, is, is think about technology as a, as a way to, you know, as a. Yeah, just a driver. A driver rather than a detractor.

Drew Hall: Yeah. You know what's interesting is like I keep, I can't get this analogy out of my mind. Again, it's back to sports. But if you go to any competitive swimming competition anywhere in the world, and I mean competitive, you're not going to see a single swimmer out there without a cap on. You're not going to see a single swimmer with like loose swim trunks on. You know what I mean? They know what it takes. And I'll just use an industry term, their return on investment. You know, they don't do these things for the look or the feel or whatnot.

Drew Hall: They're doing it for performance and they know they're going to give as much energy as they can to win this thing, but they know the things that are going to hold them back. And so to get the best ROI on their energy output, they're avoiding these, let's just call them technologies. A shower, a swim cap. As a, as a technology. Not really, but you know what I mean? Like it feels like the same kind of thing. You have a fixed amount of energy that you can expend. You don't want things working against you in that effort. So it feels like the same kind of thing.

Drew Hall: And I feel like I use the example all the time in commercial real estate. Like, oh man, I wonder, I wonder what it's costing me in dollars in carbon, etc. What is it costing me to run that 14th floor, west facing glass, all glass walled conference room on summers, you know, through the summers, in the afternoon. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like there are those technologies in place that can get you that quantitative data, but you just have to believe that it will make a difference, it will improve your roi and it is possible and it's worth it. It really does bring money back and extend your ability to perform. It increases your performance in multiple ways.

Suman Gidwani: I love that analogy. Drew, if you're going to do this on a professional level as an athlete, you're not thinking about how much is this cap going to cost me. You're thinking about what gains am to get from this cap.

Bill Douglas: You know, a fun little side note on the performance of that same technology. The man that broke the two hour marathon the first time he did it, he had a skin suit on, so he was wearing long legs and arms and he broke it by 30 seconds. And they DQ'd him. They said that doesn't count because the wind was more than 4 knots and you were wearing that suit. It didn't count. They made him go do it again. They made that much of a difference? They were unwilling to call that a record.

Drew Hall: That's amazing.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, Technology makes a huge difference.

Suman Gidwani: Wow. I love that example, Bill.

Bill Douglas: It's a true story. He went and did it. He's done it twice now. He's like, awesome. I don't know how in the world it blows my mind. You could run at a 4 and a half minute pace for a marathon. That's crazy.

Drew Hall: That is incredible.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, whatever the math is. Do the math. It's faster than I could ever run.

Drew Hall: Okay, so let's do this. Let's shift beyond or outside of commercial real estate for a moment and talk about these same concepts of technology adoption but in other industries. So when you think of organizations that you've worked with outside of cre, what do those organizations, or those industries for that matter, understand about technology adoption that CRE can sometimes struggle with?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, this is such a great question. I think there are a couple of things that I'd love to kind of share that I've thought around. You know, what can CRE learn from technology and how to implement technology, how to adopt technology? I would say there is, there's a couple of key things. The first is bringing in tools from other industries that allow you to innovate quickly. And so I know, Bill, we have talked about agile and agile principles and how to bring them into, into cre. So I'll, I'll talk a little bit about what those are. The second thing is really ownership, like thinking about your data as yours and how to take ownership of it, how to translate it into valuable information for you. The third is around simplification and the fourth is around insights to really inform decision making.

Suman Gidwani: So I think when I, when I talk about agile, there's a couple of things that, that come to mind. What does agile mean? What are agile principles? I feel like that word is thrown around quite a bit. But the first is, is to really decentralize decision making. So when you think about running a building, there might be one person involved in kind of who, who is the central point in saying yes or no to decisions that are being made. And this principle of decentralizing decision making is really about enabling teams or even your technology to stand alone on its own and make decisions based on data. How do we, yeah, how do we have confidence in decisions that are being made? The confidence comes from that data. And so the more that you can build your confidence as a decision maker around the drivers for those, those decisions, you can decentralize decision making and allow it to happen quick and happen in a informed way. So I think that's kind of one, one of the key principles of agile.

Suman Gidwani: The second is around iteration and learning. You know, you want to, I think, I think this is a really huge opportunity for the CRE space is can we learn from our mistakes and how can we do that quickly, how can we fail fast so that we can then change it and improve, adapt. So, you know, in field of technology we have, when we, we have agile teams, we run retrospectives. We have opportunities to sit together as a team and think about, okay, how could that have gone better? And then also how do we adapt to changing needs of clients? Whether that client be the owner, whether it be the residents of the building, whether it be the governing bodies who are enforcing policy. You know, things change and buildings need to be able to adapt to those, those changes. And then finally, the last piece of the agile principle that I'll kind of share today that I think is important for CRE to think about, is working together, working together on diversified teams. If you have one person who only brings the business perspective, then you're missing out on so much. You're missing out on the customer experience perspective, you're missing out on the technology perspective, you're missing out on sustainability perspective.

Suman Gidwani: And so having diversified teams with different skill sets work together with touch points that at frequent times allows you to iterate and move quickly. So, yeah, I'll pause there. I know I just, I just spoke a lot, but I can talk about some of the other kind of lessons as well.

Drew Hall: Yeah, well, you know, you sort of alluded to it a little bit, but I'm curious if, if there's an example that you could think of like a small but powerful experiment that an owner could run today that would teach them that something is valuable. Because I like what you're saying, that kind of even goes back to the beginning of our conversation, is start small and just prove it. Like, hey, words are cheap, let's do something here. What can we do where we can apply some effort qualitatively, get some results and say, whoa, check this out. And this is only just the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Do you think of a small experiment like that or have you seen this in practice?

Suman Gidwani: I mean, one of the easiest things to do, you know, if you've ever done a lead training or anything, like that one of the, of the easiest things to do in a building is to change your lights, like change to LED lights and even have lighting that turns on or off based on whether residents are in the space. And so by implementing that, that's literally just, you know, going and buying some new light bulbs, you can do an experiment to understand how much you're going to save on your lighting costs. And I bring that up because of Bill's previous example, you know, where something as simple as a lighting management system can save you tens of thousands of dollars and that, that hits the bottom line.

Drew Hall: Absolutely, yeah.

Bill Douglas: And that's, that's an expense if you allow it to be in your brain. But truly it's an asset, it's an investment and the return is all the savings.

Suman Gidwani: That's right, yeah.

Drew Hall: And I think it's important too. I mean, I feel like we said it indirectly at at least maybe we have said it directly, but there's, I feel like there's a, almost a responsibility here to say like when you do that, let's take the lights for example, great, you've changed them out. I think that it's a truly a responsibility to track, quantitatively track what's happening. Because if you don't do that, you might just kind of in theory go, ah, I think that made a difference. But I don't know, I don't have the data. It just feels right. Other people have said it works for them, so I'm going to trust that it works for me and it's just discounting it for yourself. And unless you take this information in for yourself, you're not going to believe it and act on it in future endeavors in greater areas of your portfolio.

Suman Gidwani: That's so true. Yeah. And I think it's going back to what I said earlier. You can't track what you don't measure.

Drew Hall: Absolutely. Yes.

Suman Gidwani: And so it's critical to have that infrastructure in place and it allows you then to actually engage in those agile principles. You can't iterate if you don't have the data to back it up.

Bill Douglas: Suman, at the risk of being redundant, I'm going to try and find a different way to ask this question. But because of your in depth work with, with irrational labs in commercial real estate and how you got to do that while at IBM still fascinates me. Why do so many industries view data as a strategic asset while commercial real estate still and often treats it like a byproduct of operations?

Suman Gidwani: Wow. I think that today every company is a technology company and it's funny actually. New York City Tech Week was, was last week and I was in the city and I was just talking to my friends about how the term Tech week, like, like what does it even really mean? Because everything, everything today is technology. And, and you know, our buying ha. Like the way we buy things have. We buy everything on online and on digital systems now. And so by doing that we have created all of this data around our buying habits. And companies that are moving fast, that are at the forefront of innovation, are capturing that data and doing something with it and creating value out of it.

Suman Gidwani: Whereas real estate, I think that they have not really seen, they don't consider themselves to be technology companies yet. And I think that is what is holding them back. There is so much data that can be gathered and that is being gathered oftentimes by vendors, but owners just don't have their hands on it and don't realize the insight that it can bring. And to be honest with you, Bill, I'm not sure why. Because it's there, it's sitting there and oftentimes it already exists and someone else is tracking it and has ownership of it, but the buildings themselves don't. And so I think this is, I mean this is the crux of what we're talking about, right? Like why is every company a technology company? But CRE is still hasn't seen the value of that or captured the value of that. And until CRE does that, you know, it'll be missing out. It'll be missing out.

Bill Douglas: I often hear we don't do technology, we just rent space. And I do think that the market is changing that because rent increases are somewhat capped and expenses have gone through the roof in the past three to five years. So it is making some heads turn a little bit. So let's shift just slightly. And I'm going to ask your opinion. If you were advising a commercial real estate owner who's overwhelmed by technology, back to the whole starry eyed, what do I do? It's easier to do nothing than it is to pick. So like technology, AI, sustainability, operational change, like they're drowning in it. What's the first step you would tell them to take tomorrow morning?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, you know, I'm going to bring everything together. We talked about adoption, we talked about starting small, we talked about all of these principles of technology and also about human behavior. I would say the number one thing to do is talk to your peers. I think one of the big barriers that we found to adoption is that people don't know where to start. And they don't necessarily trust the information or they feel like it costs too much and there's no upside. Talk to a peer and try one thing that your peer has successfully implemented or talk to an advisor, find someone who has done this before and try it. One thing. That would be my advice that helps kind of overcome those barriers of adoption and it helps you get your foot in the door and get going.

Drew Hall: Yeah, get that. Buy in. Start with something. Okay, so the last section of these things, and you may know this already if you've seen this before, we call it the extra floor. And in the spirit of commercial real estate, and it's just a big shift here from talking about the industry to you just to give us an idea and to give our listeners an idea about the human side of who we're talking to. So it's just gut level responses to these. I don't want to say simple questions, but they're fundamental questions, I guess. So, three questions here.

Drew Hall: Here's the first one. What is a great piece of career or life advice that you've received?

Suman Gidwani: Yeah, I mean, lots of great career advice, but I would have to say best piece of life advice comes from my grandmother and it is around balance. Just having balance in your life. I think, you know, in the world we live in, we are all striving to do more, achieve more, but at the end of the day, you can't do that unless you fuel yourself. And so it's, it's really all about balance.

Bill Douglas: Simone, that's a whole nother podcast topic. Like, love what you said, but we could talk about that endlessly. All right, second question. What's one habit or practice that consistently makes you more effective?

Suman Gidwani: Ah, I would have to say communication, Closing the loop with folks, following up at the end of the day, even with friends just reaching out and saying hello. That, I mean, I, I feel like a lot of issues can be avoided by communication, potentially even over communication. And so I think just frequent communication is for me, I have found a big key to success.

Drew Hall: Okay. Would you consider yourself an early bird or a night owl?

Suman Gidwani: Oh my gosh. I think I used to be a night owl, but I think if you asked me today, I would say neither. Like, I love my sleep. This goes back to balance. Like I, I need to be able to rejuvenate my body and, and so neither. But I will say, ever since moving to the west coast, I think now I'm a fan of being an early bir. It's actually changed my life. Waking up early.

Suman Gidwani: I get so Much done in the morning. I just get to enjoy being outdoors at the, at the beginning of this call we were talking about how much the outdoors allows you to reset. And so yeah, just, just getting done in the morning and waking up to the outdoors and then being able to spend time in the outdoors is, is great.

Drew Hall: I cannot help but say this here, but my youngest just left middle school for high school and so they're all about the meme talk and everything and what they say to people when they're too worked up is go touch some grass. I love that. I'm like you guys, that is actually not a bad idea.

Suman Gidwani: Yes, touch some grass on your tree.

Bill Douglas: Well, it's great further north, not just west. So it gets dark at 9 o' clock at night this time of year around summer solstice. It is wonderful. Like Julie and I went for a walk last night after 8 o' clock and the sun was still up. Like we just do so much more in the summer and do so much more active, so much healthier. I sleep so much better than when I only have eight hours of sunlight a day versus 16. So Suman, how can our listeners contact you? I think you're going to get some reach outs from the show.

Suman Gidwani: They can contact me on LinkedIn. I think that's the, that's the best way to go and I'll be happy to respond and keep the conversation going because it's one I'm super passionate about.

Bill Douglas: We will definitely put your contact info in the show notes. So everybody out there just hit the episode page and it'll be in there. So thank you again Suman. I've been anticipating the show for a while and it did not let me down. I think we could have a follow on show easily about a few of the subtopics. We probably should have you back in a few months if you're game for it.

Suman Gidwani: I would love it. Yeah, we can talk a little bit about AI and what's going on there.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, especially you bring a wealth of information not just from this industry on the behavioral side, but across all industries on the technology side. So I would like to take you up on that. We'll have you back and thanks to our listeners. We always appreciate it. Be sure to like Drew said at the beginning of the show, like follow, subscribe, share it, send an episode to somebody, you know, apply to be on the show, tell your friend they should be on the show, etc. Etc. So we appreciate you and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Peak Property Performance.