How Property Owners Can Build Operational Intelligence from Their Data

Bill Douglas: Foreign. Welcome, everybody, back to the Peak Property Performance Podcast. Today I'm your host because Drew's on vacation, having fun somewhere, not home with his family, which we always like to do. So today our guest is David Berneman. David, before I go on my riff about the show, say hello to everybody.

David Berneman: Hi, everyone. Thanks, Bill. Thanks for having me.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you. So, as always, before we start, to all our listeners, thanks for listening. Don't forget to, like, subscribe, follow, and more importantly, share it with others. This is a movement. We're trying to change this industry relative to digital and data and technology, and we do that by everybody sharing stories, not by selling anything to anybody, but sharing stories. So if you think you would be a guest on the show, a great guest, or, you know, a great guest, hit our site@peakpropertyperformance.com where you can see all the episodes, too, but put in an application.

David Berneman: So.

Bill Douglas: So, enough about that. Today we're joined by David Berneman, a real estate operator whose organization spans investments, asset management, property management, and construction. Jack of all trades. I'm going to say what makes David's perspective particularly interesting is that his team actively is building systems and workflows needed to turn property data into operational intelligence, rather than simply buying software, which David and I concur a lot of people are doing without a plan and hoping it solves problems. They explore how owners can take greater control of their data, automate workflows, and make better decisions across an entire portfolio. In this episode, we'll talk about data ownership, vertical integration, lessons learned from early AI adoption, and what the future of intelligent property operations might look like. I said it once, David, but welcome to the show again.

David Berneman: Thanks, Bill. Thanks for having me.

Bill Douglas: Let's start out by talking about the shift from buying software to building intelligence. You mentioned to me last week that your team recently gained API access to AppFolio and is beginning to build custom workflows and reporting those and everything else around your data. So what pushed you from simply using software to building your own operational intelligence layer?

David Berneman: Yeah, good question, Bill. I mean, we have been a customer of AppFolio for, I don't know, close to 15 years now. We were, you know, we've always been early adopters with software in general and new ideas surrounding software. So, you know, we came across a couple of different hurdles with using the innate software within AppFolio. And, you know, we've got various components of it over time where we've been able to modify its use and create our own reporting systems and, you know, build out our own platform to allow for us to kind of look at KPIs and things like that. Right. But it just wasn't good enough, unfortunately. And so we started to tinker with the API access and think about how we can effectively create our own version of Appfolio.

David Berneman: I mean, that's really what it comes down to. It would allow for that. And so we still are at our infancy stage. Admittedly, you know, we only started early this year, so we're about six months into a lifecycle of building out these various workflows. But, and it's working out pretty interestingly. I mean, we've used some AI tools to allow us to kind of build out the platform. Luckily we have some internal staff that have some pretty decent experience on the IT side and marketing side and helping us with integrating Appfolio's API software into what we want to create effectively. And so we're starting out, for example, using IT to create a workflow that allows us to more properly focus on the move out cycle.

David Berneman: And so, as most folks in the property management space and ownership space know, a tenant's move out has a lot of moving parts, you know, so to speak. And so those moving parts require a variety of different parties, different departments to get involved at moments in time. And so it's really crucial for us to have the proper stepping stones and allowing folks to pass the baton from one place to the other very easily. And so at Folio's Innate software allow for pieces of that pretty well, you know, but we've always come across different scenarios that it's been very tough to hone in. So we're now building out that workflow using the API access to have our own version of a, of a, of a move out integrated kind of software effectively. And it'll allow our teams to really more properly pass the baton from one place to the other.

Bill Douglas: I love this specific example. And just to set it straight from the beginning, this is not anti appfolio. This is. We're just picking that specifically because David has experience with it. I mean, these are all great companies, but every time we engage with a prospect or a client, the first thing they bring up is their PMS system, the property management system. They think that they have control of their data because they have their pms. And the whole point of our book and the show is to talk about that is one point of data. There might be a dozen, there might be 20 different systems on a property generating data.

Bill Douglas: And it's great to have control of that and have flexibility with it. But let's continue to talk about the other systems throughout the show and things like that. So you talked about what limitations you were running into that made you do it. When did you realize the standard reports and information you were getting out of your PMS were not enough? What was the impetus to do this in house and make this change?

David Berneman: Well, you know, a variety of things I would say. You know, over the years, as I said, we've played with different components of the software and we've kind of been on the cutting edge in terms of trying to integrate, for example on Folio hat, it's called AppFolio plus and we still have that where we're able to integrate more properly into Excel and you know, build out our own reporting and things like that. And so, you know, I think it came down to finding missing links basically. Right. So for example, going back to the move outs, we realized that when unfortunately an eviction occurs, for example, an eviction occurs and the sheriff is there and moving out of tenant. We have our maintenance team that's there changing the locks and all those sorts of things. But that data unfortunately doesn't make its way into the software very easily unless somebody's manually entering something. And even then it didn't properly assign the workflow to the next person.

David Berneman: And so we would have scenarios where say there'd be three, four days post sheriff lockout where, you know, somebody on the staff would say, hey, what happened with that lockout? Oh, it happened perfectly fine, but why did we wait three or four days to find that out? Right. And so the software just didn't ping the right people. Unfortunately it was things like that were the impetus for us to realize that that that move out kind of workflow and chain of events was not working. There were it, it worked, I would say 80, 90% of the time, not saying it didn't work, but you know, there were those one off scenarios, unique scenarios where it didn't and we wanted to catch all of them. And so that's the kind of event that occurred in our team that said, hey, look, we need to take this to the next step. And so when we spoke with our AppFolio reps and they had mentioned over the last year or so about the API access and said, hey, that might be a solution to problems like this, allowing you guys to build out your own platform and your own version of the software. And so we took it upon ourselves to do that.

Bill Douglas: So David, what surprised you most when you started to connect data across the organization. What positive or negative happened that you didn't anticipate?

David Berneman: Well, you know, again, we're at the infancy stage. Right. So I would say, you know, we'll. Time will tell exactly where this all

Bill Douglas: goes and I'm sure recognize so far. Then how about that caveat? Like.

David Berneman: Yeah, yeah, I would say we will see. I'm sure there's going to be quite a few of these that are going to come to the table that we're going to realize, hey, look, this isn't working. We got to shift gears a different direction, whatever it might be. But you know, thus far I would say it's been mostly positive. Right. I mean, the one thing I would say that's negative is the amount of time that it's taken our team internally to, you know, learning curve with the API, you know, figuring out the best form or format. Right. You know, for example, we, we were using CLAUDE to help us kind of platform out what the workflow, the final product would look like.

David Berneman: Right. And that in and of itself took us three, four months to play with. You know, what do we want the user interface to look like? Right. So it's one thing to connect the data, right? So fine, we connect the data and you know, we create the workflow inside. And you know, our, our friends who are, you know, on in house here that are coding this stuff, you know, are going to put that all together. Fantastic. But then what does it look like for the average user? You know, that sort of GUI interface. Right.

David Berneman: And so that in and of itself took quite a bit of time and we're still tinkering with it, admittedly, so we'll see how that all plays out. But I think if everyone is patient and understanding that, hey, this is all new to everybody and understand that, you know, you got to bring on those specialists who can really play with this and put this in the right direction. I think, you know, it'll work itself out for the more of the positive for sure.

Bill Douglas: We have audience members from all stages and sizes of business and they might hear you say you're doing it in house. And I want to just put a caveat around that even a small firm doesn't have to do this in house. There are partners that'll do it with and for you, if you're big enough to do it in house. Great. Some are, but that's really on the exception side right now, not the norm. But doing it is the key. Right. So we talk on the show a lot about the five Cs it's published in the book.

Bill Douglas: But clarify, like, know what you don't know is the first step. But connect, collect, and then coordinate before you do control. So you're clearly in coordination right now. Right. And we talk about doing one or two plays, and I, I just love the fact that you're validating everything we talk about all the time. Because you're doing a play, which is key. It's a big play. I don't, A lot of people don't want to start big.

Bill Douglas: So kudos to you for doing that.

David Berneman: I mean, I would just add, Bill, that I think, you know, look, it's. We are early adopters, as I said earlier. But that said, you know, I think in the age of AI now, everyone has to be an early adopter to some degree, right?

Bill Douglas: Everybody can be. Yeah, yeah.

David Berneman: And absolutely, like you said, you know, if you, if you need to outsource certain things, I mean, there's a lot of different opportunities out there to outsource relatively cheaply these days. And so it's really crucial that people really get on this.

Bill Douglas: But the expense isn't always in developing it. The expense is in maintaining it and fine tuning it. Like, you can do the first wave in house if you choose to, and that you should, because that's your strategy. But implementation and maintenance of some of this is not an easy task. Well, I shouldn't say easy. It is not a zero task. It is a valid thing that must be paid attention to. Otherwise, when that connection breaks, it's done and nobody uses it again.

Bill Douglas: So I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but. Yeah, I was just trying to caution the audience, don't be afraid of the fact that you don't have somebody in house to do it. You can still do this. This.

David Berneman: Oh, 100%, absolutely. There are a lot of opportunities for folks to do this in a variety of different ways. But I would just add again that it's crucial these days to get ahead of the curve and really stay on your tippy toes as it relates to data and all things surrounding data.

Bill Douglas: Well, let's shift gears and talk about what vertical integration teaches you about data. So I was excited about having you on the show because you sit across investments, asset management, property management, and construction. Like I said in the intro, jack of all trades. So what do you see when all of these functions start sharing information that most operators miss or historically, commercial real estate has never done? You know, that construction was over here, onboarding or go live, you know, within 45 days of TCO was here, ramp up was here Operations is here. You know, they were all different silos. So what do you see about crossing all that, particularly relative to property management and asset management?

David Berneman: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, listen, we've been lucky enough to be in a position to slowly grow organically and add various components to the business. You know, we started out as truly an investment business, you know, purchasing a six unit apartment building and then realizing that, hey, I need to have a property management arm to effectively manage this on an ongoing basis. And so those two pieces of the puzzle started us off. Over time we started to add different components to it in order to allow us to organically control all elements of estate, as you sort of alluded to. Right. So we were lucky enough to be able to bring on a partner, family member of mine who, you know, was brought on the construction side. We then eventually kind of shifted into a design build firm.

David Berneman: And so we've, we've expanded in that way. But all of it allows our teams to sort of cross pollinate information into different realms. Right. And so although we use appfolio primarily, we have other pieces and other softwares that we do use. And we are actually, as we speak, working on trying to integrate all of those into, you know, a collective unit. But that said, you know, the staff and the folks and the people that are here. Right. Again, passing the baton is really important to me and passing it well and not having anybody drop the ball.

David Berneman: And so being able to pass the baton, for example, from, you know, we were talking about move outs, right. The move out occurs, you know, our construction team will go in there, they'll do a bid and this is, you know, a separate, but sister construction team will go in, do a bid, get the work done, pass the baton back to our management team and our leasing team very seamlessly. It's all done and integrated in our softwares. And so I think it's been really, really helpful to have various phases of real estate kind of all in house, sharing data, sharing information, and really being, you know, a singular team in effect. Right. So that to me has been big. It's been great.

Bill Douglas: Again, commend you not just for the vision, but in the execution and the way your works across all those silos. I know how successful you've been in overcoming those hiccups, shall we say? So hats off to you. That's why I've enjoyed this conversation.

David Berneman: Yeah, never easy.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, of course not. It's always harder than we expect. Like the was that old movie two weeks. Two weeks. Remember the contractor kept saying two weeks and it was like 18 months later and he was nearly broke and they were finally done. Yeah, I forgot the name of it, but Michael Keane, I think it was. Talk about. Yeah, the reality of AI, what worked and what didn't.

Bill Douglas: So you were experimenting with AI leasing assistance years before most people were talking about AI. So what did you learn early with AI? Not necessarily the relative to leasing, just what were your big aha moments? Talk to somebody who's just starting. What should they expect? What would you share to do, not do? What did you have a win with? What would you wish you've started early? Just there's an open palette. I'm going to let you speak.

David Berneman: Sure. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, we've been early adopters on a variety of, of software and functionality and whatnot. And so when we had the opportunity to take on an AI leasing bot or leasing assistant, this goes back, I want to say, to 2019 or so. So pretty early on in the process of what's been happening lately with AI, we took up the opportunity and it was free of charge at first, which was great. We were able to be a beta tester. And then eventually you had to pay for it, which was fine. We used it for a couple of years and we just realized that yes, it had a lot of the great functionality that you hear about today with all these various bots who can. Very helpful.

David Berneman: But there were a lot of again, dropping the ball kind of scenarios. Right. So, for example, you know, a decent amount of our portfolio, you know, has folks in who use Section 8 vouchers, for example. And so the leasing bot would get tripped up, even though we would try and teach it. It would get tripped up when somebody was asking questions about that and, you know, wouldn't answer properly or would redirect in the wrong direction and we'd lose out on communicating with that prospect properly. And so after, you know, I'd say probably six months or a year or so where we kind of closely honing in and seeing if we could tinker with it, make it better, we decided to ax it. We said, you know what, look, this isn't working. And this was again, probably we completed the cycle from 2019 to about 2022, 23.

David Berneman: So we had a good three, four year run and it, it had gotten better over time, but it just wasn't good enough. And so, you know, we were early adopters, we tried it out. We were, there were a lot of learning lessons there for sure. And ironically enough, it allowed us to learn to shift over. And we actually hired an individual, a human who is based in the Philippines. So vir virtual assistant who had a lot of experience dealing with lease prospecting. And we brought her on full time and she's been fantastic, you know, so she actually has been able to take the reins from our AI friend and really do what we wanted to be done to begin with. Right.

David Berneman: Somebody who can kind of be molded and know how to deal with things and really process prospecting extremely well. And so those lessons were fine. You know, we learned from them. And we were able to take those lessons and apply them to our new hire and really teach her, you know, hey, these are the things that we saw before, albeit through AI but you know, we want to make sure that we fix those going forward. And within weeks, we had a much better setup, much better scenario. So I think the learning lesson is, look, the technology that's out there, a lot of it works extremely well. And I'm sure today if we applied that, you know, same experiment, it would be better because AI is better today than it was back then. But don't be afraid to backpedal, you know, if it doesn't seem to work, there are other alternatives out there that can be just as cost effective and really potentially even better, you know, so don't give up on the.

David Berneman: On the human race.

Bill Douglas: Oh, of course not. I love that. Actually, if I could elaborate a second, we, especially in the engagement process, find a lot of resistance from teams because we are implementing autonomous decisions and they think that they're going to be replaced. And autonomous, in our opinion, doesn't mean removing all humans if it can make. If a machine can make a decision, make a decision. But we strongly believe that human gates make for better than a full, full autonomy, like machine autonomy alone, without a human. Especially because you mentioned hallucinations. AI hallucinations.

Bill Douglas: We talk about them occasionally. Probably not enough on this show, but it's not always right. It's a thought partner, not a thought leader. And if you hand over the reins, it'll go a direction you don't want to know, or it's making up. It is kind of crazy, so you have to catch it. But if you can put human gates in there, then the person that was taking 40 hours to do something now only needs to take 10. We still need to be the thought leaders. AI cannot be it, and they probably won't be it.

Bill Douglas: So. But the redundant, mundane things that we are paying people to do now that those same people are worth so much more money than the tasks they're doing, that's the goal in Autonomy, for instance, an asset manager is diving into Excel spreadsheets for reports to look at results when really they should be diving into the data that's driving the results. Like, instead of looking backwards on our KPIs, how do we look forward? That's the kind of tools we can get from that.

David Berneman: So, yeah, I was going to say, you know, ironically enough, now here we are about, you know, three years after we removed the AI and, you know, brought on a human being. And, you know, as we were contemplating, exactly, what you're saying is like, well, how can we make her more efficient right now she's become proficient at all of this, right? But she's being bogged down by a lot of the sort of redundant tasks. And so ironically, now we're kind of reverse engineering and we're saying, okay, wait, we're 100% keeping her on board, but how do we now add an AI tool to help her so that she can elevate what she does? And I'll give you a real world example, right? She's sitting there and dealing with prospects and calling and texting and whatever, right? The AI platform, let's say we get a new one, right? We know that they can handle the basics, right? But if she could be the auditor or administrator, right, to make sure that things are working well, then we could do that much more. On top of which, I think she could be in a position now to help us with other things that, you know, really don't get handled as often as they should. For example, you know, going in and cleaning our Zillow advertisements, right? You know, like, that happens once a month. It really should happen once a week at least. So it would give her the opportunity to have more time to do things like that if we, you know, hand off some of the more routine tasks to an AI agent. And so we're now actually contemplating adding an AI agent.

David Berneman: Back to your point. You know, a lot of these AI functionalities don't necessarily remove the human. It will just augment, you know, what our people are really doing extremely well and make them more efficient.

Bill Douglas: I like analogies, and typically we do sports analogies, but I just had one come to mind. And, you know, the carpenter of today still needs that saw, but the saw, number one is quieter. Number two is battery powered, number three is lighter. So the carpenter is more mobile and quicker and frames that house in two days instead of three and a half days. Because the tool's better. They still need to do it. Their skill set is still critical to the thing being square and done, but the tools change. AI is that tool.

Bill Douglas: Like you started out early. Well, this tool is better, but it's not a carpenter, it's a saw. Like it's a tool in the tool bag for you people.

David Berneman: I think it's a great analogy. Yeah, absolutely.

Bill Douglas: I have a awesome woman that works here. Her name's Roxanna. We call her Roxy. She's going to chuckle because she heard her name on the show, but she said to me a couple months ago, don't go. Automate me out of a job. And I said, roxy, I wouldn't think of it because you are creative, you're a doer, you're organized, and you're eager to take on more marketing. And like, she is very thorough and just gets it done. There's no way in the world I could devise a machine to take her place.

Bill Douglas: Can I remove some things that are taking an hour or two of her day? Absolutely, that's the goal. So that she can do more stuff, but no way I would ever think of getting to displacing her. And that's how I feel about our engineers. That's how I feel about our customer support engineers that are spread out all over the world, but that's how I feel about them. So if you can grow your company without hiring people, or grow your company with hiring half as many people as you would have had five years ago, then it's a win. We need to remove the idea that AI is going to be. Be just agents and no people. It's just not reality.

Bill Douglas: Not in our lifetime. I really don't think so.

David Berneman: No, I would agree 100%.

Bill Douglas: Well, speaking of our lifetime, I'm going to ask you, fast forward five years. What does an intelligent real estate operating platform look like to you? Just, I'm asking you to pull out your crystal ball and what are you excited about? What do you think will happen?

David Berneman: Yeah, I think, you know, look, I think as we're talking about here, you're going to have a lot more AI integration. There's no denying that. And there's going to be a lot of, of a lot better, I would say, passing or crossing of information from various platforms. Right. So. And maybe even via AI agents. Right. I could see a scenario in which, you know, we're working as we speak, I should mention, on creating our own internal AI chatbot.

David Berneman: And so our intent is to effectively allow that to be an agent for each one of our staff people internal to our softwares. You know, it'll be linked up with the Microsoft Office and teams which we use internal internally to communicate. It will be linked up to the API as we talked about earlier Appfolio, hopefully be linked up with a few other softwares we use on the construction side. For example, we use a software called Houzz. And so the idea is, is that that AI agent will be an adjunct to each of our employees. Right. And so maybe to answer your question, maybe there's a scenario in the future where those AI agents are communicating with each other over data and asking each other questions in order to answer questions that we would otherwise personally be asking. So I, I could see a scenario like that.

David Berneman: Again, it a, it's an adjunct, right, or in addition to what it is we normally do. But it will allow the human element or the humans behind the scenes to actually do more higher level tasks. And so that basic questioning, let's say we, you know, we're in there and we're communicating in teams, let's say, or slack, you know, folks use that to ask somebody a question. Well, maybe we don't need to do that. You know, your AI agent's going to do that for you. So I don't know. There could be a variety of scenarios like that that I think will be more the norm in the future.

Bill Douglas: Well, I think your future relative to operating technology in a platform is already there. We, almost every site we manage have agents speaking to each other often because of timing that things need to happen or maybe permissions. They have an internal programming, say building management system that can and should allow other inputs to override it. Like other inputs. Like maybe we can see the calendar that the event center is going to be packed this afternoon. Probably should cool it down sooner than later especially because the peak time is at 4 o' clock and that's my most expensive energy. So there's, there's some things that needs to be thought about and the agents are talking back and forth deciding what to do. A human being would be reactive and instead of being with the people in the event center at 4 o', clock, let's say they'd be running around messing with thermostats.

Bill Douglas: So we're, we're already seeing that relative to ot, but what do you think? Last question. What do you think commercial real estate owners are underestimating right now?

David Berneman: What are they underestimating? That's a good question. I would say, you know, the, the one thing we haven't talked about on the AI that's maybe a drawback is and some people are already aware, right. Is the overall cost of this. And so, you know, you do get into a scenario where from my understanding, a lot of the existing platforms are somewhat subsidizing, you know, the technology. Right. Via these. For those of you unfamiliar, you know, AI uses this like dollar valuation, usually tokens or credits, things like that, that allow the AI to do various tasks. And it's a little bit of a black box, admittedly, you know, in terms of what it costs, in terms of tokens or credits to do X task.

David Berneman: I guess my fear would be that, you know, there is a scenario here where these tokens, because they become less and less subsidized over time, they become more of a real cost. You know, you start getting it to the point where, hey, this is, you know, we were trying to be more cost effective by bringing on an AI tool, not hiring somebody, a real human being, let's say, or we're adding AI tools and not adding staff, whatever it might be. But, you know, if those tokens start to add up to the point where it's just so cost prohibitive, you could be in a scenario here where, hey, these AI tools aren't just working anymore. I mean, at that point I'd rather hire, you know, a few more human beings to, to handle some of these tasks. So I think there could be, you know, that could be a little bit of a negative in the, in the, you know, in the future here for where things might go. So I'd say that's something to keep in mind with all of this stuff that's happening right now in the AI world.

Bill Douglas: We do talk about that concept a lot, even outside of AI, especially outside of AI, is that technology should be an investment, not an expense that generates an income. So that requires constant cost benefit analysis and roi. So if your ROI is negative, that can be addressed. And I agree with you, there will come a time because the AI providers are building and they're able to raise capital right now when they can't and the operations revenues are expected, it will get more expensive. Then you'll have to pick which one to do. But I also think they will get, they will get better. About telling you how much this is going to cost, you can lay out a plan and see. And because we also live in the world of knowing how much it costs after we've already spent it.

Bill Douglas: Yeah, that we try to cap. We, we try. There are ways to do it. I don't want to get into the, into the weeds with AI, but that should all be discussions you're having with your team. Like go in aware that this is not free. No, it is definitely not. There is a value in it, a significant value, but it's not free.

David Berneman: Yeah, as you said earlier, you know, there's, there's an upfront cost obviously to setting these systems up. But don't forget the maintenance cost, the ongoing cost costs, the changes over time. You know, there's going to be, you know, costs associated with all that and we have to be aware of that and plan for it and budget for it.

Bill Douglas: You have costs associated with every other asset you own. Digital is another asset you own. So there is upfront costs, there's maintenance costs, there's change out costs. Forklift is going to happen. Not in the next five years, but it'll happen. For some reason, your sensors or your database or something will need an uplift. Well, we get to this spot in the show every time, David. We shift from talking about the industry and your business to, to talking about you and we call this the extra floor.

Bill Douglas: So where we've had conversations before, I'm just going to ask you questions and this is meant to be, you know, from the gut, gut level response is short and sweet. You don't have. This is not a discussion. So it's just like let the audience know more about. David, first question, what's the best piece of career or life advice you've ever received?

David Berneman: Start early, as early as you can, I think. You know, if you, if you know that you want to start X business, get into this field, whatever it is, you know, start early. Don't, don't wait around. If your gut is telling you that that's the industry you want to be in, that's the role you want to be in. You know, start as an intern to push yourself. Right. I think that's really crucial, especially for young folks that I meet. You know, it's like a lot of folks are kind of, you know, dancing around ideas, you know, just dive in, just do it.

David Berneman: Just got to do it.

Bill Douglas: Okay, so what's one habit or practice that consistently makes you more effective?

David Berneman: I would say consistency. And I'm always working on it. Don't get me wrong, it's very difficult. But you know, consist of sleeping habits, eating habits, you know, all of the, all those sorts of things that are about the body, the mind, body connection, all the, all that. Right. It's really crucial to focus on that, especially as you get older. Unfortunately, you know, it becomes more and more important to really focus on those sorts of things. You know, if you have certain routines, yoga, exercise, whatever Those kinds of things too.

David Berneman: I think it's really, really important to be consistent with it all as much you can.

Bill Douglas: This one one's super short, easy. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

David Berneman: That is a good one, actually, because it's a little bit of both. I used to be quite a bit of a night owl. As I have younger kids, that has shifted into being more of an early bird. So I would say today I'm actually ironically more of an early bird.

Bill Douglas: Isn't that funny how those kids will do it to us?

David Berneman: Yeah, but naturally it's a fight because I think naturally I'm just more of a night owl. But maybe sometime I'll go back to that in the future.

Bill Douglas: But when that kid's pulling on the side of your bed at 6am it's hard to be a night owl.

David Berneman: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Bill Douglas: Every parent that heard that would just chuckle. So, David, how can our listeners contact you? We will put all this in the show notes for all you driving down the road or walking or working out. So you can always find it in the show notes, but tell us how you'd like to be contacted.

David Berneman: Yeah, easiest way is via email. You know, I'm@DavidOldenBproperties.com anytime. I have a lot of peers who ask questions. I mean, I do too, of my peers. You know, I'm, I'm always an open book and love to help other folks out with their businesses. So anytime, send me a quick email, David.

Bill Douglas: Goldenview properties.com and that's Golden B E Properties.

David Berneman: You got it. Like a buzzing bee.

Bill Douglas: Okay. I thought so. Just for the audience that's listening only. Well, thank you, David, and thanks to all our listeners. Be sure to, like I said at the beginning, like, follow subscribe and we'll see you on the next episode of Peak Property Performance.